Cider- the “New” Artisan Beverage Superstar- An Interview with Joe Heron of Crispin Cider

The Crispin Tap Handle

As a part of my research for becoming a homebrewing genius, I decided to send out interview questions to people behind my favorite breweries- hoping their answers would give me insight into the world of brewing and tips for how to avoid impending disaster.

Included in this list was a man named Joe Heron- Founder and CEO of Crispin Cider.  While cider may not be craft beer, it IS an artisan beverage that I tend to enjoy.  I had the pleasure of trying a bunch of Crispin wares (as well as ciders from Fox Barrel, another cider company that Joe runs) and I’ve been hooked ever since.

The following is a cut and paste insert of Joe’s answers to my questions about Cider and the beverage industry in general.  Cheers!

1. What was your first cider experience?

Probably as a teenager in South Africa. Cider then, was what you drank if you didn’t like the taste of alcohol too much. And even then it was pretty much a “sweet-beer”, for people who didn’t like beer. South Africa has changed a lot since then with some fine ciders coming out of that country.

2. What inspired you to get into making cider?

The “dirty little secret” is this; I did not enjoy cider very much when Lesley & I started Crispin. So my involvement initially was purely entrepreneurial. Cider as a category was exploding worldwide. The cider over ice phenomenon had not yet hit the US in a meaningful way, and it is pretty common knowledge that much of the beer industry turns on a serving ritual (Corona with a lime, Blue Moon & an orange slice, Stella Artois’ focus on it’s Belgian chalice) so that was interesting. It was apparent that that market trajectory was not shared yet in the US. We also looked at data that showed that cider represented less than 1% of the US beer market, Vs +/-5% in most countries around the world, in the UK & Ireland it is around 15% (and growing rapidly) – so the commercial runway seemed very long. In our opinion the cider category had stagnated innovation, taste-profile and image wise. Ciders being mainly positioned as beer-alternatives for people who didn’t really like beer – rather than a standalone proud refreshment option. A little old-fashioned in imagery. That most large cider brands available were made using apple-wine fermented from apple-juice concentrate seemed totally contrary to cider integrity. We set out to make ciders that we would enjoy – dryer, a little more sophisticated. Ciders that would attract cider & NON-cider drinkers. Cider made with fresh pressed apple juice.

3. What is your favorite cider to brew and why? What is your favorite cider to drink (both your own creations and from other cideries as well) and why?

I don’t have any “favorite children”. But ….. our Artisanal Reserve unfiltered cloudy ciders are very boundary breaking. They are challenging to make in terms of mastering alternative ale yeasts, smoothing with natural sugars, and then maintaining product integrity with unfiltered apple-wine sediment/lees left in the bottle. These are truly “American” ciders. I find Crispin Original on draught sublime – full & rounded without being sweet, refreshing enough to drink a few. I love Crispin Honey Crisp, especially with food. Fox Barrel Pear is the easiest cider to drink in the world, in my humble opinion. Truthfully I like all our ciders at different times. We also do very, very small Limited Editions, usually ciders aged in wooden barrels that we are very proud of. Bonnie & Clyde is just great conceptually (true love can be dangerous) and intrinsically (heirloom apple-wine aged in Chardonnay barrels). We have many more coming out, some quite soon.

I like Farnum Hill a lot. I think Doc’s is very good too. Eve’s Cidery “champagne” ciders are lovely.

Final point – cider is not beer, and it is not “cider-beer”. Cider at it’s truest form is apple-wine. Cider is vinted like grape-wine in a cidery, an “applewinery” not a brewery. Cider is not “brewed”. And cider is alcoholic, everything else is apple-juice.

4. What is your favorite beverage event to attend, and why?

I really prefer events in good bars Vs giant beer-fests. I love talking to the bar owners, bar-tenders, and patrons on a personal level. There is a unique face and personality to every bar. The Firkin Fest at The Happy Gnome in St Paul is great, we have had Bonnie & Clyde events at Papago in Phoenix, Beer Bistro in Chicago, Matt Torrey’s in Brooklyn, to name a few. Max’s in Baltimore is a great bar who hosted us alongside Victory & Harpoon during American Craft Beer Week. I am really looking forward to some events in Rattle & Hum & The Blind Tiger, amongst others in NYC. Cider dinners pairing our ciders with appropriate food styles is enormous fun. We hosted a “Ciders & Sliders” dinner a short while ago – where all our ciders were paired with 6 slider “burger” courses from appetizer through dessert. Brilliant, delicious, fun.

5. What upcoming new cider styles should we look out for?

I think the first thing that is going to happen is a flood of standard, typical ciders coming to the market to try and gain a foothold in a fast-growing, yet undeveloped market. Fruit ciders, in particular Pear, will also gain currency as a more natural, tradeup, easy to drink refreshment option. At this moment in time Crispin is the only cider company really stretching the boundaries of cider styles. We work with novel yeasts, natural sugar sources, and barrel aging all the time. This is what makes us feel alive, and what makes us come alive.

Honey Crisp Cider

6. Do you like craft beer? If so, what’s your favorite craft beer and why?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. I think Victory Prima Pils is a work of art. I think people underestimate how hard it is to make an exceptional Pilsner. There is no place to hide in terms of malt, hops and ABV. Mike Lundell’s limited release India Style Rye Ale, part of St Paul’s Summit Brewing’s Unchained Series – is inspired. Truthfully I am a bit of a wuss with some of the more aggressive craft styles, I lose my ability to talk after more than one West Coast IPA – my tongue seems to become paralyzed. I need a knife and fork to drink some of Sam’s Dogfish Head beers.

7. Do you think there is an easy cross-over from craft beer drinkers to cider lovers? Which cross-over is easier: craft beer to cider or craft beer to wine?

Absolutely. There is a cross-over. Craft beer drinkers are open-minded imbibers. However craft beer drinkers are discerning and demanding. The selection is vast, and the drinker is promiscuous. The rational data shows that craft beer drinkers are twice as likely to drink cider as the general beer population. I believe that craft-beer drinkers drink craft beer instead of wine in the main, especially the core consumer. I think that cider is more part of a craft beer drinker’s repertoire than wine is.

8. What has been your hardest challenge with the creation and continued success of Crispin? What has been your greatest success/ defining moment with the creation and continued success of Crispin?

Ok. The greatest challenge we face is the category itself. It’s perception of being sweet-beer than can give you heartburn. The fact that we, as a start-up cider company, have to do most of the category heavy lifting to help elevate cider is also challenging. We also have a problem with developing cider evangelists. Perhaps this has been because there was nothing to evangelize about. But the craft beer universe is being built on the momentum of people who like beer, on the brewer as “rock-star” cult status, and a sheer open-minded embrace of experimentation and enjoyment. The cider-geek is a conservative ubertraditionalist to the point of Talibanesque dogma. A dogma that has resulted in American’s drinking more non-alcoholic beer than cider.

We at Crispin are far more inspired by Jim Koch, Ken Grossman, Greg Koch, Sam Calgione, Mark Stutrud & Bill Covaleski, than anyone in the cider fraternity. (To call the cider industry fraternal might be moot). We have no one of their stature in our industry.

Then, like every small company in this industry, distribution is challenging. Some distributors can really hurt you through indifference to the point of obstruction. We are fortunate to have a lot truly exceptional wholesalers, who are great people, and love us and our products – they are far the majority. The minority – some of whom are very large, are our biggest commercial challenge. That the Great American Beer Festival excludes cider might be an indication of how low in esteem the category is held in America.

Our greatest success has been the embrace of all our products by consumers and customers in 24 states and counting. I do believe that the launch of our Artisanal unfiltered Reserves started to define our creative personality, which led to the Limited Releases. In the industry, our acquisition of the Fox Barrel Cider Company and the cidery gave us the stature and credentials to be taken seriously.

We are not a company short of self-confidence, but we owe a few wholesalers our self-belief. Without them things would be very different.

We have a pocket full of Crispinite. It’s powerful stuff.

9. Tell us your most fun cider story.

The most fun I have in cider is having someone say. “I’m not really a ciderdrinker” – so 99% of beer drinkers, and then they go “wow that’s really good, different, delicious not sweet, I’ll have a little more, mmm, ok give me a glass”.

The Saint - Brewed with Belgian Yeast and Maple Syrup

10. What is your take on the craft beverage community (beer, wine, alcohol, cider, mead, etc.)? What is your favorite thing about it? What could stand for some improvement?

Without getting in to multiple cliché’s-I love the sheer exuberance and confidence of the craft beer industry. I honestly think it illustrates everything great about America. It illustrates the values, attitudes and spirit that, through these trying times, the USA will end up being okay.

I am envious of the camaraderie in the craft beer fraternity, from the brewer side to the consumer side. People are supportive and embrace a collaborative, creative ethos that combined with competitive spirit is driving the growth of the category overall. We make the best beer in the world. I would challenge any one to counter that argument. (We also make the best cider in the world now.)

I am not informed enough about Mead to comment. But I am intrigued.

I love wine. And my personal tips are South African Chenin-Blanc, Australian Dry Riesling, Gimblett Gravells – New Zealand Syrah, Grenache/Garnacha from anywhere.

I am very interested in artisanal spirits. This is nascent in market development terms, but there is some cool stuff happening, often from craft brewers. I would love to develop something in this space. Frankly I think the relationship between craft beer drinkers and craft distilled spirits may be closer than craft beer is to wine.

I think the biggest challenge the craft beer industry faces is the sheer promiscuity of the core consumer. The consumer is faced with such a barrage of (interesting) alternatives in flavors, formats and from excellent breweries, that consumer loyalty is possibly dead. I find the domination of seasonal varieties alarming – when Seasonals are the top sellers the head is starting to eat the tail. IMHO.

I am not a craft-brewer. And my status is such that my opinion carries little weight. From my individual seat and opinion, I wonder which is more important to craft brewers now – complexity Vs refreshment, and I wonder how the consumer feels about this? And how many IPA’s can possibly be sustained?

My Epic Beer Weekend – BrewYork #4, NY Brewfest 2010, & Rattle N Hum/ Toast meet Dogfish Head

...and we weren't even finished yet!

Well, the good news is that I survived through the awesomeness that was this weekend.  The bad news is- you (probably) weren’t there to experience it with me.  Hence- my want to share it with all of you in my finest blog posting form!  Cheers and enjoy, frienditos!

Friday night began the journey into a craft beer laden weekend with Brew York Meetup #4.  All in all, about 30 to 40 Brew York members showed up throughout the night; amassing over 60 bottles of brew on top of fellow Brew York-er Matt Steinberg’s stunning New Jersey Beer Co contributions- newly kegged from the brewery.  Brew York was also lucky enough to have Paul and Kim Kavulak of Nebraska Brewing Company join us for this fun endeavor.  Paul and Kim are craft beer advocates and overall fun and kind people.  The night was a social gathering full of good craft beer, good food (Andy Z made wicked brownies!), and good company.  What else could you ask for?

Awesome NJBeerCo swag available at the brewery- the hat even has a bottle opener built into it!

Andy Z, Chris, Adam and I hamming it up.

A closer view of the BrewYork graveyard... yum!

The ladies of Brew York- Clare, Genevieve, Melissa, Kim, Me and Charlotte

The boys top to bottom- Andy Z, John, Matt, Greg, Paul, Andrew, Craig, Lee, David, Adam

The aftermath of Brew York!

The highlight brews of the night were Dark Lord 2010 (Iiiii Know- ’nuff said!), Hair of the Dog Blue Dot IPA, David from Grapes and Grain’s Green Chili Saison Homebrew (tasted like a professional brew, not even kidding you), New Jersey Beer Co’s Spiced Abbey on cask (with just the right amount of spice), Mikkeller Chipotle Porter (so smoky which is just my style), Russian River Consecration (deliciously sour) and Cigar City Bolita Brown Double Nut Brown Ale.  Disappointment for the night was the Dogfish Head Bitches Brew- it was good, but not great, and definitely did not stand out in the crowd.  The coolest entry of the night was the Reutberger Kolster Export Dunkel- brewed by Nuns in Germany.  Also standout- the spicy dry rub pork that Matt grilled for us- so juicy and with the right amount of spice to enhance every brew!

David, Andrew, Charlotte and Lee enjoy samples of the Nebraska Brewing Co Melange a Trois

As if Friday night wasn’t enough to smash us up, Saturday morning arrived, bringing with it (dunh dunh dunh!) NY BREWFEST 2010! We hopped on a ferry and hightailed it over to Governor’s Island for what we were hoping to be another crazy event.  Luckily, we had sprung for the “Beer Connoisseur” pass, which allowed us entry to the festival one hour before the rest of the attendees.  This not only allowed us to sample what beer we really wanted before lines got super long (towards  the end, they were up to about 30 minutes for anything worth while), but also allowed us to hit up the Nebraska Brewing Company booth for the only real special “Beer Connnoisseur” pour- the Melange a Trois. Let me tell you- this Belgian Strong Ale was the only brew that actually even made the event worth it (besides, again, the good company we kept).   Other highlights included Nebraska’s Cardinal Pale Ale, Captain Lawrence Kolsh, Greenport Harbor Ale, and Doc’s Draft Hard Raspberry Cider.  While Heartland Brewery did a great job of organizing breweries to show at this event- the booths were shared and the lines were insanity.  Also- I waited online for the one single food booth for about an hour, just to find out that the two food items that I wanted were sold out.  I enjoyed more the fact of being outside on a gorgeous (albiet hot) summer day partaking in samples of some delicious craft beer while chatting with good people.

Lee (Hoptopia) and I on the ferry ride back (check out my super cool bottle opener hat!)

The crowds online for food at NY Brewfest 2010 were insanity

Kim and Paul Kavulak pouring Melange a Trois at their Nebraska Brewing Co Booth

Sunday brought about a much needed day of liver-rest.  We had scheduled a podcast with Peter Kennedy of Simply Beer, however, due to unforeseen circumstances, the podcast was pushed off for a later date (hint, hint, nudge, nudge, stay tuned!)

Now, to the culmination of this epic weekend- we arrive at Monday, in which I worked my tail off and then hopped on a train to Rattle N Hum Bar.  See, this wasn’t just ANY night at RNH- this was “meet Sam Calagione from Dogfish Head” night.  The event started at 5, and I didn’t get their until about 6:15ish (curses upon you, capitalist society!)  This basically meant that the place was a mob scene and there was no way I was even getting close to Sam Calagione.  I did, however, get to feast my eyes upon my fearless Brew York crew yet once again, where we partook in many DFH brews and even a flight or three.  My flight consisted of Midas Touch, a Turkish strong ale and the oldest known fermented beverage; Burton Baton, a blend of English Old Ale and the 120 Minute IPA (my fav from the flight); Fort, an ale brewed with a ridiculous (their words!) amount of raspberries; and Pangaea, a spicy ale made with ingredients from each of the continents.  I also got to try the Palo Santo Marron, a deep, wooden brown ale.

Lee (the ham!) and I

The Brew York Crew- Me, Jonathan, Chris, Genevieve, Clare and Adam

My flight in all its glory!

Sadly, due to the high volume of people- catching a glimpse of Sam was like trying to catch Bigfoot.  Lucky for us ladies, there was another DFH event going on at the Uptown Toast- a craft beer bar set in Harlem that also offers some delicious burgers.

We arrived at Toast, and, needless to say- after that flight, it was time for a restroom break.  Why am I privileging with this TMI information?  Because, to my surprise, who should I encounter on my way out of the bathroom, but the man himself, Mr. Sam Calagione.  He turned to me on his way into my restroom and said, “Hi!  How are you?”  I’ll never wash that part of my Hippocampus again!  Sam turned out to be a fun, sweet, and easygoing guy who chatted with anyone and everyone, gladly stopped to take photographs with fans whenever asked, and spent most of the rest of his night serving beers from behind the bar.  Genevieve, Clare and I got a brief moment to chat with Sam, in which I did not even mention beer once, but instead chatted about Queens and Brooklyn.  Sadly, I did not get a picture of Sam with us ladies, however, Clare did, and once I hunt her down, it will be posted here.  As for the rest of the night- we finished up with some more Dogfish brews (My Antonia had already kicked the bucket once we arrived, but there were plenty of other goodies around) and had ourselves some burgers and fries.

Jonathan and Lee enjoy a burger (and a moment...)

Kenny and Kaitlin enjoying what I believe to be Palo Santo

Classy Ladies- Melissa, Genevieve, and I

That picture of Jonathan and Lee gets my vote for best picture of the weekend- classic!  All in all- what a great way to end out an epic drinking weekend.  That being said- none of us ladies are talking to Genevieve- she left just in time to be the luckiest lady of the night- to grab a cab with Sam Calagione.

So, that’s what a weekend is like in the life of a Brew York-er.  Epic, fun, exciting, tasty, and full of great people who are genuinely interested in craft beer and the people who love it.  I couldn’t have asked for a better group to spend my epic weekend with, and my memories will last me a lifetime.  As Lee says, BeerPeopleRGoodPeople- it’s a motto I will live until I die…

…hopefully my liver will, too.  Cheers!